At the DNC Rules & Bylaws Committee Meeting, Ickes states, “Mrs Clinton has asked me to reserve her rights to take this to the credentials committee.”
In defiance of the vote by the Rules Committee to admit all Michigan with half a vote, Ickes threatens to take the fight to the convention.
Hillary supporters cheered Ickes’ threat by chanting, “Den-ver! Den-ver!”
The Hillary campaign immediately issued a statement in support of Ickes’ remark. Here is Clinton’s senior advisor Harold Ickes
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Wild Thing’s comment……..
Obama likes to brag in speeches about how brave he was to go up to Michigan and tell the auto industry that they would have to raise fuel mileage standards, raising costs and costing Michigan jobs.
What he doesn’t mention, of course, was that he gave that brave speech after he’d seen the polling indicating he was going to lose Michigan to Clinton and pulled his name off the ballot. LOL What a twit jerk and any name you like to use for this B. Hussein Obama.
So a guy that took his name OFF the ballot gets votes given to him. Go figure. hahahaha Only in America!
Harold Ickes was ticked as well he should be which of course is also a good example of how glad I am that at least so far to be a Republican our votes count.
WOW this woman is really upset. This first one is really kind of scary. Clinton supporter Harriet Christian angry after Rules & Bylaws committee meeting on Florida and Michigan.
And another one outspoken Clinton supporter here who unloads on Barack Obama and promises to vote for John McCain in the fall.
Check this out. hahaa
LOL these are long awaited for after all these years of the DNC bashing Bush and Republican’s. hahahahhahaa
Just another day at the office of the DNC messing with votes. LOL
?? B. Hussein Obama, President & CIC; Hillary Clinton, health secretary; John Edwards, attorney general; Joe Biden, Secretary of State. ?? Hillary Clinton to be offered dignified exit Telegraph.co.uk. …for complete article
Hillary Clinton will be offered a dignified exit from the presidential race and the prospect of a place in Barack Obama’s cabinet under plans for a “negotiated surrender” of her White House ambitions being drawn up by Senator Obama’s aides.
The former First Lady would get the chance to pilot Mr Obama’s reforms of the American healthcare system if she agrees to clear the path to his nomination as Democratic presidential candidate.
Senior figures in the Obama camp have told Democrat colleagues that the offer to Mrs Clinton of a cabinet post as health secretary or to steer new legislation through the Senate will be a central element of their peace overtures to the New York senator.
Mr Obama said on Thursday that he believed he would have secured the support of enough delegates to make him the standard bearer of his party in November’s presidential election by the end of this week.
The Obama camp, however, remains nervous about Mrs Clinton’s intentions and ambitions, and is preparing a face-saving package that will allow her to continue to play a role in health care reform, which has been her signature issue for more than a decade. Despite pressure from some Clinton allies, Mr Obama and his advisers do not wish to ask her to be his vice-presidential running mate. “They will talk to her,” one Democrat strategist close to senior figures in the Obama camp told The Sunday Telegraph. “They will give her the respect she deserves. She will get something to do with health care, a cabinet post or the chance to lead the legislation through the Senate.”
Another Democrat who has discussed strategy with friends in the Obama inner circle said that Mr Obama was openly considering asking Mrs Clinton to join his cabinet, alongside two other former presidential rivals: John Edwards, who is seen as a likely attorney general; and Joe Biden, who is a leading contender to become Secretary of State.
Wild Thing’s comment……..
Sure, that will appease her! I doubt if it would, just can’t see that happening.
Can’t we ever be done with the Clinton’s. Biden and Edwards. OH NOooooo!
Only in America, she tries to socialize healthcare while holding no elected office, her back room plan proposed a communist type system which was summarily dismissed by both the left and right alike and largely led to the Republicans winning the house and senate for the first time in a LONG time.
This is what makes you an expert on healthcare??? Being a total failure??
What a bunch of ridiculous BS.
Putin: US, frightening monster Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin has urged France to distance itself from America, comparing the US to a ‘frightening monster’.
“How can one be such a shining example of democracy at home and a frightening monster abroad?” Putin said in an interview with French newspaper Le Monde in Paris released on Saturday.
“France, I hope, will continue to conduct an independent foreign policy,” said Putin.
He said the US was creating a new Berlin Wall in Europe by pushing the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) to expand into ex-Soviet states Georgia and Ukraine.
The former Russian President also voiced concern over the fact that the West’s “military infrastructure is coming closer to our borders,” and denounced the US for seeking a “monopoly in world affairs.”
Under Putin’s eight-year presidency, Russia clashed with the US and the European Union over matters such as NATO expansion and a plan to station a US missile-defense system in Eastern Europe.
And this:
May 31, 2008 – “I don’t think the Iranians are looking to make a nuclear bomb. We have no reason to believe this. The Iranian people are very proud and independent. They are trying to implement their legal right to develop peaceful nuclear technologies.” – Vladimir Putin
Source: Russia Today
Wild Thing’s comment…….
Take heart Putin, if B. Hussein Obama wins the Presidency the U.S. will no longer be a monster superpower, and you will probably be invited to the big surrender party.
At a press conference with leading Florida Democrats, no one wanted to hear from Lanny Davis. Must be a shocker to Lanny, he was the media favorite all during the Clinton Monica lying era and later the Impeachment. LOL
Fox News
Barack Obama and his wife Michelle have resigned their membership at the Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago, FOX News has confirmed, after controversies stemming from the congregation created a persistent distraction for Obama’s campaign.
The criticism started with the sermons of his former pastor, Rev. Jeremiah Wright Jr., but Obama’s pastor problems were compounded this week by the Rev. Michael Pfleger, whose videotaped guest sermon at the church Sunday showed him taunting Hillary Clinton and saying she felt she was “entitled” to the presidency because she’s white.
Obama said he was deeply disappointed by the remarks and Pfleger apologized, but Clinton’s campaign still demanded Obama specifically reject the latest remarks.
By resigning his membership, Obama is taking the most definitive stand to date against the church.
He already has roundly condemned Wright.
Videos of Wright’s sermons, in which he claimed the U.S. government created HIV to exterminate black people and said “God damn America,” threatened to derail Obama’s campaign when they first surfaced in March.
Wild Thing’s comment…….
Watching him explain on the news right now Obama says his reasons for leaving are that every time someone from there speaks, the comments are connected to him AND the church itself is getting unfair and unfavorable coverage. He is doing this for the church … not because he disagrees.
He did say the comments of Flegher were inappropriate, but he wishes all his friends at the church good will and praises the work done by both Wright and Flegher.
But he is not saying what has been screamed from the pulpit there has been wrong and he wants nothing to do with that anymore.
Dems decide on Florida, Michigan delegates Breitbart
Democratic Party officials restored renegade state Michigan to its presidential convention Saturday with halved voting rights, but Hillary Clinton’s camp said it may challenge the ruling.
The Democratic National committee’s rules and bylaws committee voted 19 to 8 to restore the northern state, after earlier voting to reinstate Florida, which also broke party rules by bringing its primary forward to January.
Clinton, who won the primary, in which Obama’s name was not on the ballot, will get 69 delegates, who will each only have half a vote in nominating the party’s presidential nominee.
Obama will get 59 delegates, who will also have half a vote under the plan.
But Clinton’s senior advisor Harold Ickes, who had argued that Obama should get no votes, said the former first lady’s supporters had been hijacked.
“Mrs Clinton has instructed me to reserve her rights to take this to the credentials committee,” Ickes said.
The committee is due to meet in July as preparations accelerate for the party convention.
The rules and bylaws panel earlier voted 27-0 for the compromise Florida plan, which will give primary winner Clinton a net gain of 19 delegates to the convention but leave her well behind Barack Obama in the total delegate count.
The plan will see all the state’s delegates , and superdelegates (top party officials) restored, but they will each have only half a vote at the convention in Denver in August to crown the party’s presidential challenger.
At a fiercely contested meeting at a Washington hotel, the committee earlier rejected Clinton’s bid to have the Florida delegation seated in full.
Clinton’s angry supporters chanted “Denver, Denver” demanding the row be taken to the party convention in August and “Madame President” “Madame President.”
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Obama has snatched control of the Demosocialist Party. And Obama wasn’t even on the ballot in Mich. AMAZING! Voters swarm hotel, watch DNC rules meeting Denver Post
What the Democratic National Committee decides today will affect whether Greta Scriboni, a lifelong Democrat, deserts the party and votes for Republican John McCain in November.
“This coronation of Barack Obama is just not sitting well with Hillary supporters,” Scriboni said.
Scriboni, 52, stood at the bar in the Marriott Wardman hotel today, listening to the arguments made to the Democratic National Committee about whether to seat Florida and Michigan delegates. Other protesters, tourists and the curious also gathered outside and inside the hotel.
Wild Thing’s comment……… I’ve been watching with great amusement the rules committee today on TV.
These are just some of my notes while I was watching. 30 Democrats call overriding the will of 600,000 of their OWN VOTERS “Democracy
Massive divide in the Socialist Demonrat party is clear !
Ickes just nuked the DNC. Says ” votes were hijacked” HE IS RIGHT!
Bwah hah hah hah…..
The FL voters have just been disenfranchised. Seating the Florida delegates. It just lost. Get the fire hoses and barricades ready.
Ickes went nuclear on the Rats.He said…… “You bet your ass it was flawed.” “You bet your ass a lot of people didn’t vote.”
He says 30 people substituted their will for 600,000 Michigan voters.
“You bet your ass” is his money quote.
ICKY just shocked the crap out of all those there! I think, I think I have found respect for Icky…kinda…THE CROWD IS GETTING OUT OF HAND….someone was told to SHUT UP!! TEMPS are going through the roof!! I LOVEIT!!
Ickes just declared nuclear war. Hillary is taking this to the credentials committee at the convention, then a floor fight.
And Ickes slammed Don Fowler for abandoning Hillary on the Michigan vote with his cheap shot about ‘the more Don drank, the more eloquent he became’. Yikes.
Bwhahahah…ICKY,” Hijacked”…he said it twice. THIS IS WAR FOLKS…I’m telling you!
Democrats just showed the entire world how little they respect the right to vote. Communisim anyone? Because that is what it looks like the Democrats rule by.
Some guy just shouted “you’re putting lipstick on a pig!”
Someone else yelled out ” How can you do this to us!” GOP: one man = one vote Rat: one man = half a vote!!!!
Pakistani Police Say Teacher Beat, Killed Blind Boy for Not Learning Koran Fox News
A young blind boy has died after a teacher at his Islamic school in Pakistan hung him upside down and beat him for not learning the Koran, Agence France-Presse reported Friday.
Teacher Qari Ziauddin allegedly hung Muhammad Atif, 7, from a ceiling fan at Qari Latif Islamic school near Lahore, Pakistan, on Thursday.
Pakistani Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani has ordered an investigation into the boy’s death, AFP reported.
“The Prime Minister has expressed his deep sorrow and concern over the tragic death of Muhammad Atif, who reportedly died as a result of corporal punishment by his teacher,” an official government statement said.
Pakistani police said Ziauddin has been arrested and charged in Atif’s murder. The police also report Ziauddin did not take the boy to the hospital after his condition deteriorated following the beating.
Local police official Akram Niazi told AFP an autopsy report confirmed that physical torture caused Atif’s death.
“Qari Ziauddin hanged Atif upside down with a ceiling fan in the school after beating him with sticks, which caused his death,” Niazi told AFP.
And this one: Honor Killing Horror In Hamburg
A young female form lying crumpled on a sidewalk. Blood flowing from multiple stab wounds. Police cars. Ambulances. Flashing lights. Emergency personnel working frantically to save an innocent life that had barely begun.
It is a scene that is becoming all too common in Western Europe with its growing Muslim population, as the northern German city of Hamburg experienced in May yet another horrifying honor murder of a young female.
Morsal Obeidi, barely 16, arrived in Hamburg from the war-torn country of Afghanistan when she was three, probably barely remembering her country of origin in her new homeland. The German Muslim student, who had won a prize in her multicultural school for tolerance and peaceful co-existence with others, was stabbed 20 times by her 23-year old brother, Ahmed, who ambushed her at a commuter train station.
The reason for Morsal’s murder is a common one for female Muslim victims of honor killings who emigrate to the West with their families and grow up between two cultures: she was living too western a lifestyle.
“She had a different life than the family wished,” admitted Ahmed, who assaulted his sister so severely that he wounded himself and had to be treated in hospital.
And this……. Rape Jihad direct from the pages of the Koran Islam Watch
During a question answer session in East London Mosque, preacher Imam Abdul Makin was asked by a niqabi muslima about recent fatwa from a well known Imam .
Naqabi Woman: “One eyed hooked Imam Hamza Mesri said muslims can kill British infidels and have sex with their wives and daughters, Do you agree with him?”
Imam: “It is not what Imam Hamza said nor is there a question of my agreeing with him or not. It is in Quran thus those are Allah’s orders.”
N.W.: “But why would Allah tell muslims to kill and rape innocent non muslims?”
Imam: “Because Non-muslims are never innocent, they are guilty of denying Allah and his prophet. If you don’t believe me, here is the legal authority, the top muslim lawyer of Britain, Anjem Choudhary (Video below).”
N.W. “ But our Prophet was sent as a mercy for all the humanity; he never hurt any body in his life”
Imam: “Yes he never hurt a muslim in his life. But Allah said non-muslim are lowest beasts and worst creatures in ayas 8.22,8.55,95.5 and 98.6 and muslim are ordered to kill them.”
N.W.:” But did prophet approve of killing them and raping their wives?”
Imam: “Yes he did. He not only approved of such acts, he and his sahabas practiced it regularly under Allah’s orders. He was helpless in it… If you don’t believe me , you have to believe sahih hadiths. I will quote you two hadiths about his typical day after a raid. These hadiths are about the raid on jewish village Khaibar whose chief was Kinana who had gorgeous 17 year old wife Safia. Prophet tortured and beheaded Kinana in front of Safia and raped her all night afterwards.
A known British Mullah Mr. Anjum Chaudri describes the “Killing of Innocent” Non-Muslims civilians in the suicide bombing as “Legitimate”.
Wild Thing’s comment……..
There are many stories like this, one as horrible as the next. Our soldiers are fighting a truly evil enemy that wants to rule the world. This enemy is not one single country but all over the world.They have an agenda and it will happen if we don’t fight back. If Obama wins I fear we will not fight back, we will be seeing a President of the United States doing sit downs and having tea with these terrorists.
It is the so called religion that is a death cult and if people do not realize this, wake up and see how it has it’s own laws NOT our USA laws in our land. It has it’s own government so to speak that will always be their first concern no matter what country the followers live in. Then if we don’t realize these things and wake up we will not see the America we have loved and want for future generations.
America is the best country in the entire world. It is still a baby compared to others and yet we have been the one to help all the others, to defend and fight to help the others, to come to the rescue of other countries when they have a need. The USA has done these things more then any other country and we need to know that if we get in trouble and we go by what history tells us, we will be in our own fight to fend off Islam’s rule and destruction of our nation. So if we wait till the last minute it just might be too late.
Look at the UK practically handing over their country to Islam, inch by inch but now they are saying that Islam is bigger then the Christian church there. That there are places in the UK that non Muslims cannot go out of fear for their lives. English speaking Muslims living in America protesting against America
…Thank you Lynn for sending me the story and link about the murder of the innocent blind boy.
Trailer for the documentary “Missing, Presumed Dead the Search for America’s POW’s”
Rough transcript of the video follows: 1992 Senate Select Committee on POW/MIAs, Part 2: The McCain Factor
Dr Joseph Douglas Jr – Author “Betrayed – Americas Missing POWs”
Senator McCain seemed to be one of the people that was an obstructionist
who was not interested in the truth coming out
who tried to attack people rather than learn what they had to say
Tracey Usry fmr Chief Investigator , US Senate Minority Staff
At no instance would he ever ever give in and say that there were POWs left behind
and my first question is “How would he know? or not know?”
So that which is reasonable he never exhibited
and I don’t know why. Maybe it’s a guilt complex
Maybe he promised the Vietnamese something
ok – I don’t know what it is
and maybe he actually believed that
that would be the saddest of all
Delores Apodaca Alfono – Chairperson, National Alliance of Families
I mean he was yelling and screaming at me
he had me in tears
Tracey Usry
oh to everybody…
.. he was very rude to me on several occasions
Dr Joseph Douglas Jr
he probably did more harm to the idea of trying to get the truth out than any other single person
through the efforts he did to block the release of classified intelligence dealing with the POW MIA problem
Lynn OShea Dir of Research National Alliance of Families
McCain stepped in and in effect made it harder for us to get documentation
…We were hoping for a massive relase of documentation
Senator Bob Smith (R- NH)
Many many documents were held back, for no reason , and our goal on the commottee was to dump this stuff , declassify it literally to the public – but the US Govt withheld all kinds of information from the committee. I know that for a fact.
Al Santoli, American Foreign Policy Council
Even POW’s who wanted to see their own debriefings were not permitted because of the MCCain regulation
Rep, Bob Dornan (R-CA)
and where did McCain get compliments for doing this – the bureaucrats at the Pentagon
.. and did we need that bill to handle the Scott Spiker case – oh you bet we did!
Al Santoli
it would hold the bureaucrats accountable at law if they lied or withheld information , and he fought tooth and nail to protect those bureaucrats – cos they were protecting him.
Senator Bob Smith
I could never understand that – if someone was guilty of withholding information that would help us to solve the mystery of what happened to an MIA and did it deliberately – why would we not want to preosecute that person
…. I supported it, fought for it hard – in the US Senate and mostly in the Armed Services Committee where we debated it, but …
It was watered down to basically where it was almost worthless
Al Santoli
Now one of the things that happened with that bill is that we were submarined
On the House side we passed it with a pretty much unamimous vote
Rep, Bob Dornan
401 to zero on the House.
with every single Republican who is serving sponsoring it , and about a third of the Democrats.
Al Santoli
On the Senate side we had one person standing in the way of getting in positions that would have been very tough on Govt bureaucrats who didn’t tell the truth – and that one person was Senator John McCain.
3.50s
Cpl Bob Dumas
He didn’t want anybody to check HIS background. wanted to protect his background because a lot of POWs we had in the camp said that he was a collaborator of the enemy. He gave the enemy information they wanted
Dr James Lucier Former US Senate Chief of Staff
What we do know is that when he was there he cooperated with the communist news services in giving interviews that were not flattering to the United States
Tracey Usry
Information shows that he made over 32 tapes of propaganda for the Vietnamese Govt
Certainly you do what you need to do to stay alive
No body would fault anybody for that
but there comes a point in time where enough is enough
Rep, Bob Dornan
He made those transcriptions, and in those transcriptions
I heard a POW who heard them coming into his cell and said
OMG is that Admiral McCain’s son !? is that the Admiral’s son? Is that Johnny?
telling us that our principal targets are schools, orphanages, hospitals, temples, churches
4m45s that was Jane Fonda’s line!.
Quote:
Where are those transcriptions – believe me they are in the archives of the museum
the bragging military museum in Hanoi
and McCain could not have wanted one of those to turn up in the middle of a presidential race
he knows that , I know that, a few other people know that
and that’s why he went against Bob Dole’s legislation
Cpl Bob Dumas
and he didn’t want nobody looking into his background in the camp
what went on in that camp.
that stuff’s still classified , so nobody can see it
and he just had it classified forever, so nobody will EVER look at it.
Dr James Lucier
that he was given special treatment
that he was put in a room with two other defectors
who were later given special treatment
although I will say to his credit that he refused to be repatriated as a result
Rep, Bob Dornan
and it sounds so good at first
McCain was offered the chance to come home
they called him the Prince, – and he could have…
but nobody ever takes that one step beyond that
If Admiral John McCain II junior – if his son at Lt Senior grade
had accepted this Pricely Status and come home in 1967
while the others would sit there for 5 years
what would the Navy have done with the son of an Admiral
who opted to get special treatment and come home
No Navy career , no house seat, no senate seat
would have been the end of his career
and they were offering him this chance to go home
in one of the 3 groups that came home in 68
they were all collaborators
yep except for Don Diego
and McCain calls em this
the slipperies, the slimies , and the sleezies
I once forgot one of those names and he refreshed my memory
and that meant that he would have become a slimey a sleezie and a slippery
ruining his career
so what I’m saying is :
yes he choose to say – but did he have an alternative ?
if he ever wanted to have a life – and what would it have done to his father
Dr Joseph Douglas Jr
and his activities were sufficiently consistent and widespread in opposing efforts to learn the truth
that he was written up in a number of articles as the Manchurian Candidate on this issue.
Rep, Bob Dornan
that in Hanoi he saw McCain turn red in the face
he even used the term Rumpelstiltskin – jumping up and down in place in a rage
If you release ANY of these records that you have here in Hanoi
on me or the other POW’s, you will NEVER get diplomatic recognition
Tracey Usry
McCain may have been an expert on being a POW, but he was by no means an expert on the POW issue.
.
Wild Thing’s comment….taking the mask OFF our POW and MIA information……..
This YouTube below is from a movie called The Shawshank Redemption , this particular scene and the finale scene is included is about Hope. In the film the men are in prison, prison that is not even close to what our POW’s were put into at all. But when I saw this film I immediately thought of our POW’s and MIA’s and how they have clung to hope, …….waiting…….waiting…..for our country not to forget them.
This election is the worst in my lifetime, I am not a negative person so to keep finding out about so many things that will rip America apart, destroy what it has been and the country that so many have fought for from the very beginning back to our Founding Fathers and our Veterans from all our wars including today’s troops tares at my heart like an open wound.
At least 20 times a day I go back and forth in my mind that I must vote for McCain because of how evil Obama is and will be for our Nation. Then my heart takes over with each of those 20 times a day and I have such a hard time even thinking of my vote for McCain with a clear conscience when for me the biggest most horrible thing he did of all the horrible things he has done, and is for doing now and in the future, is the 1992 Senate Select Committee on POW/MIAs.
I am not saying yes or no, vote for McCain and not to vote for President at all, which would be a first for me. I still have till November but you are all so dear to me I wanted to share with you what I have been feeling about all of this. Yes “feeling” a girl thing, this warrior girl does go there after much deliberation in my head and heart over something so important about our beloved America.
I realize this is a horrendously long post and I have spent some time on it so you know where I stand or am torn up inside about. As always I have always been honest with you and could not do it any other way. I will keep posting things about any of the candidates mostly the dems ( Hillary and Obama) as they are doing the most things disgusting, and McCain every so often as he does or says something that ticks me off, but his have not been daily but they sure have been whoppers on their own. This really is so bad that we do not have a conservative to vote for, and the rino is even more democrat then even a rino. waaaaaaa
There is a rather long article I want to share with you all. It has a lot of information in it that we all need to know about. And this way too there will be a record of it here at this blog.
Thank you so much for your friendship and kindness all of you and letting me rant and cheer and share as things happen.
This is something very important from the article below that hit like a ton of bricks.
“After the SSC folded up its tent and everyone went their merry way, McCain was responsible for one of the most damning pieces of legislature ever – The Missing Service Personnel Act of 1995 (MSPA 1995). Almost single-handedly McCain insured that many of the protections provided POW-MIAs and the responsibilities of the government in its accounting of them was undermined. By undoing the Missing Persons Act of 1942 and replacing it with the 1995 version, McCain essentially legislated what the Families feared the most,
“… (the) basic argument is that, rather than reflecting a genuine legal problem, the 1995 Act reflects Americas loss of faith in our governments credibility.”
(STUDIES IN LAW, POLITICS, AND SOCIETY: VOL. 28, by Austin Sarat and Patricia Ewick)
Basically, it gave the responsible parties all the wiggle room they needed to strike names off lists without the 1942 requirements.
And now for the complete article……………………….. Would Someone Please Get it Right
03 February, 2008
When Will the Publishers and Pundits Get it Right?
OP ED: AII POW-MIA
Somewhere between John McCain is a true-blue American Hero and John McCain is a brainwashed Manchurian Candidate, and there are/aren’t any American POW-MIAs alive somewhere, the truth lies.
I just wish someone, somewhere, would do enough research and less creative editing and get it right. For once, just once.
Recent in-depth articles analyzing why McCain is so generally disliked by the POW-MIA community, once again, speak only of the fringe element and the more obstreperous activists. They refer, as if carved in stone, the McCain/Kerry “findings” of the flawed Senate Select Committee on POW-MIAs (colloquially called the SSC), and one always reads… Given the Committee’s findings, the question arises as to whether it is fair to say that American POWs were knowingly abandoned in Southeast Asia after the war. The answer to that question is clearly no.” However, and it is a huge however, the paragraph continues…. “American officials did not have certain knowledge that any specific prisoner or prisoners were being left behind. But there remains the troubling question of whether the Americans who were expected to return but did not were, as a group, shunted aside and discounted by government and population alike. The answer to that question is essentially yes.”
There. You have it. Men were left behind. Not intentionally, no one specific, not purposefully abandoned, but nonetheless, left behind.
So the “clearly no” quote that is getting so much air time as the ultimate finding is wrong. Careful editing of one single paragraph can change the entire direction and policy of a nation.
People refer to the SSC report (people I suspect that have never read the WHOLE SSC Report) as if it were the gospel according to government. It is not. People also assume, wrongly, that the POW-MIA issue and the SSC deal exclusively with the Second IndoChina War – Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia. It does not.
It was an investigation into the issue of POWs and MIAs from ALL wars. Although 95% of the majority of investigation and testimony deals with Southeast Asia – World War II, the Cold War and Korea were included in the overall mission of the Committee. (SSC Chapter XI – “Although the Committee’s investigation focused primarily on efforts to account for Americans missing from the war in Southeast Asia, the principle of accounting for lost American servicemen is the same, whether the war occurred 20 years ago or 50 years ago. Accordingly, the Committee undertook a review of information and allegations concerning Americans missing from earlier conflicts and hired a full time investigator to work in Moscow on this and related issues.”) The Issue
The POW-MIA issue is not about Vietnam. It is about the 88,000 plus unaccounted-for men and women from ALL wars.
It is not about men in Tiger Cages and Caves somewhere in Laos. It is about the continued information and intelligence that came to the USG that certain personnel were seen in captivity, yet remain unrepatriated.
It is about the former USSR’s incalcitrance to provide information on Cold War Shootdowns and come forward with the truth about their involvement in the Korean War.
It is about China’s refusal to cooperate with USG investigators even though the Chinese ran POW camps during the Korean War.
It is about North Korea’s paranoid ramblings and lack of access to Death March routes, camps and combat sites. Not to mention the decades of reports that stated caucasians were seen in North Korea, teaching English.
It is about curious reports, testimony and information that states men were taken to third-party Soviet Bloc nations for exploitation in all wars. That Cuba trained and sent torturers to the SEA area of conflict. It is about men missing from latter day conflicts such as the 1st Persian Gulf War and Operation Iraqi Freedom, who remain unaccounted-for. It is about captured American Service Personnel being executed by their captors in the Global War on Terrorism and the complete disregard of the Geneva Accords.
So, now that we have cleared up that misunderstood area of the POW-MIA issue, let us move on to the suddenly revered SSC. The Senate Select Committee
We had a number of Hearings and investigations previous to the SSC (and post SSC I might add). To wit – The Helms Report, the Interim Report on the Southeast Asian POW/MIA Issue (1990); An Examination of U.S. Policy Toward POW/MIAs (1991); Subcommittee on Asian and Pacific Affairs (1991); Hearings before the Subcommittee on Asian and Pacific Affairs of the Committee on Foreign Affairs (1980), to name a few.
The SSC’s genesis came at a peculiar period in American history. Just short 20 years since our withdrawal from SEA, there was still much concern about reports of men, presumed American POWs, in SEA. Known as Live Sighting Reports, these came on the heels of even more intriguing satellite imagery that could be interpreted as Escape and Evasion markers or Authenticator Codes – laid down by stranded/captive/left behind service personnel who did not manage to make it back to the US during Operation Homecoming in 1973.
Additionally, Boris Yeltsin, in a moment of extreme clarity, madness or drunkenness, passed along to the US a purported list of American personnel who may have been transported to the former Soviet Union during times of war, (known as the Russian List) previous to the creation of the SSC.
Add to this numerous other events, reports, documents, FOIA’d material, Ronald Reagan and General John Vessey and we literally had a cosmic convergence of all things POW and MIA.
Hence the birth of the SSC.
Much hope had been pinned on the SSC, especially by WW II, Korean War and Cold War families. Little did they know they would become merely a footnote in final report after a 2 year investigation. So, with a Congressional Mandate, investigators, researchers, airline tickets and a large staff, the SSC set about its work to find the truth.
Evidence of witness tampering vis-a-vis rehearsing and scripting, document destruction, sub-rosa sessions, was described in detail. Certain, questionable, witnesses were trotted out, much to the displeasure of the families and the researchers. Credible witnesses were harassed and their research blasted. Others, with significant insight and experience in the issue were simply ignored or dismissed.
Unfortunately the Committee was hampered by personalities, politics and some highly questionable antics during its tenure. In the long run, the Committee produced a lengthy, interesting report, that was long on adjectives and mea culpas, and short on hard core answers.
When the SSC’s time ran out, boxes of material had yet to be vetted, leads and witnesses went by the wayside and the answers the SSC promised were never fully realized.
Some may say it sounds like sour grapes. Family members, advocates, activists and veterans didn’t get their desired result, so they bashed the Committee and its personnel.
Not true.
MANY, many people in the POW-MIA issue were thrilled with the SSC and its efforts. And, since the findings of the SSC clearly stated Americans were left behind, there was no argument from the POW-MIA Issue camp.
The problem was that so much was left undone, unanswered.
Look at it this way – if the SSC was the end all and be all of the POW-MIA issue… if the SSC was able to definitively answer the question ‘what happened, where did he go’ we would all happily go on our way and live our lives.
But it didn’t. It couldn’t.
As a result, we have continued to have Hearings on numerous aspects of the issue; Jackson-Vanik Amendment Hearings, Hearings on the Cuban Torture Program, WW II Pow Hearings before the Senate Judiciary Committee, Military Personnel Subcommittee Hearings (Dornan), Subcommittee on Asia and the Pacific (Ackerman), and now the huge momentum behind House Hearings on POW and MIAs known as H. Res 111 ( Rep. Peter King (R-NY).
So, now that we have put a lie to the veracity of the Senate Select Committee and its Report as the ultimate word on the Issue, where do we go from here. Oh yes, John McCain and John Kerry.
Let’s start with Kerry. I don’t give a hoot whether or not his Purple Hearts are legitimately earned. Let the Order of the Purple Heart and our WIAs fight that battle. I do not care what he did in Vietnam. Let the Swift Boaters handle that. Nor do I care about his anti-war activities, the Winter Soldier fiasco or Jane Fonda. We have millions of vets in the country, I am certain they are more than capable of handling that as well.
What I DO care about is his behavior during the SSC. How his staffer, Francis Zwenig, was permitted to run rampant during the SSC’s tenure and the numerous reports of document desctruction, witness tampering and stacking the deck against witness researchers, analysts and specialists. Zwenig went on to become a respected member of the US-Vietnam Trade Council after her term with the SSC expired.
Troubling at the very least.
Now on to McCain. I will never dispute his service record or his time in captivity. I am of the firm belief only Ex-POWs may judge other POWs. Period. His uniformed service and his captivity do not make him more or less eligible as a candidate for anything in my opinion.
His actions and inactions once he became a civilian and public servant do. I am not speaking of anything other than his impact on the POW-MIA issue. After the SSC folded up its tent and everyone went their merry way, McCain was responsible for one of the most damning pieces of legislature ever – The Missing Service Personnel Act of 1995 (MSPA 1995). Almost singlehandedly McCain insured that many of the protections provided POW-MIAs and the responsibilities of the government in its accounting of them was undermined. By undoing the Missing Persons Act of 1942 and replacing it with the 1995 version, McCain essentially legislated what the Families feared the most, “… (the) basic argument is that, rather than reflecting a genuine legal problem, the 1995 Act reflects AmericaÕs loss of faith in our governmentÕs credibility.”
(STUDIES IN LAW, POLITICS, AND SOCIETY: VOL. 28, by Austin Sarat and Patricia Ewick)
Basically, it gave the responsible parties all the wiggle room they needed to strike names off lists without the 1942 requirements.
The MSPA 1995 was so detrimental to accounting that HR 4000 IH was introduced…”To amend title 10, United States Code, to restore provisions of chapter 76 of that title – relating to missing persons – as in effect before the amendments made by the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 1997.” (August 1996)
HR 4000 failed in the House.
So, now that we have clarified the Kerry/McCain situation and why the POW-MIA Issue Community, for the most part, cannot embrace either man or the SSC Report as the final say, let us use the United States Government’s own words to define the reason that family members, advocates, activists, citizens, veterans and others continue to fight for answers and truth about our unaccounted-for fathers, brothers, sons and friends. It is not manic mumblings, an inability to accept reality or a means to bash the Government through an emotional issue. It is the following, words from our very own Gorvenrmnent and its serviant agnets and agencies: On the Korean War
“Executive Summary: “US Korean War POWs were transferred to the Soviet Union and never repatriated.” Peter Tsouras, The Transfer of US POWs to the Soviet Union, Joint Commission Support Branch, Research & Analysis Division, DPMO, 26 Aug 1993″ On WW II
“An undetermined number of American POWs liberated by Soviet forces during World War II from Nazi Germany POW camps, were NOT repatriated to the United Sates or otherwise accounted for by Soviet Authorities.” Dr. Paul M. Cole, POW-MIA Issues, Vol. 1, 2 & 3 National Defense Research Institute, Rand, 1994
“Information from the Soviet archives indicates that Soviet authorities deliberately misled US officials concerning the fate of American POWs.” Rand, 1994 On the Cold War Era
“U.S. military service members may have been imprisoned and died in Soviet forced-labor camps during the 20th century, according to a Pentagon report to be released Friday.
Researchers for the U.S.-Russia Joint Commission on POW/MIAs have been investigating unconfirmed reports of Americans who were held prisoner in the so-called gulags.”
“I personally would be comfortable saying that the number [of Americans held in the gulags during the Cold War and Korean War] is in the hundreds,” said Norman Kass, executive secretary of the commission’s U.S. section.
Norman Kass, 11 February 2005
A separate internal Pentagon document has concluded “there is a high probability” that American citizens and U.S. and British prisoners of war died in the camps.
“This report presents documentation of the United States Government’s conclusion that some of these crew men were captured alive by Soviet forces but not repatriated.” Rand, 1994
“Foremost among the major findings in this report is the conclusion that direct evidence suggests that American servicemen were transferred to the territory of the USSR from the Korean War zone of combat operations.” Rand, 1994
Executive Summary: “US Korean War POWs were transferred to the Soviet Union and never repatriated.” Peter Tsouras, The Transfer of US POWs to the Soviet Union, Joint Commission Support Branch, Research & Analysis Division, DPMO, 26 Aug 1993 On the Vietnam War
“The intelligence indicates that the American Prisoners of War have been held continuously after Operation Homecoming and remain in captivity in Vietnam and Laos as late as 1989.” Oral Intelligence Briefing before the Senate Select Committee on POWs-MIAs, April 8, 1992
“Despite adherences to internal policies and public statements after April, 1973, that “no evidence” existed of living POWs, DIA authoritatively concluded as late as April, 1974, that several hundred living POW/MIAs were still held captive in Southeast Asia.” Interim Report on the Southeast Asian POW/MIA Issue By the US Senate Committee on Foreign Relations Republican Staff Release Date: Monday, October 29, 1990
“In fact, classified and unclassified information all confirm one startling fact: That DOD in April, 1974, concluded beyond a doubt that several hundred living American POWs remained in captivity in Southeast Asia. This was a full year after DOD spokesmen were saying publicly that no prisoners remained alive.” Interim Report on the Southeast Asian POW/MIA Issue By the US Senate Committee on Foreign Relations Republican Staff Release Date: Monday, October 29, 1990 And, how could we forget the Senate Select Committee
“We acknowledge that there is no proof that U.S. POWs survived, but neither is there proof that all of those who did not return had died. There is evidence, moreover, that indicates the possibility of survival, at least for a small number, after Operation Homecoming:
• First, there are the Americans known or thought possibly to have been alive in captivity who did not come back; we cannot dismiss the chance that some of these known prisoners remained captive past Operation Homecoming.
• Second, leaders of the Pathet Lao claimed throughout the war that they were holding American prisoners in Laos. Those claims were believed–and, up to a point, validated–at the time; they cannot be dismissed summarily today.
• Third, U.S. defense and intelligence officials hoped that forty or forty-one prisoners captured in Laos would be released at Operation Homecoming, instead of the twelve who were actually repatriated. These reports were taken seriously enough at the time to prompt recommendations by some officials for military action aimed at gaining the release of the additional prisoners thought to be held.
• Fourth, information collected by U.S. intelligence agencies during the last 19 years, in the form of live-sighting, hearsay, and other intelligence reports, raises questions about the possibility that there are unidentified U.S. POWs who did not return may have survived in captivity.
• Finally, even after Operation Homecoming and returnee de- briefs, more than 70 Americans were officially listed as POWs based on information gathered prior to the signing of the peace agreement; while the remains of many of these Americans have been repatriated, the fates of some continue unknown to this day. Given the Committee’s findings, the question arises as to whether it is fair to say that American POWs were knowingly abandoned in Southeast Asia after the war. The answer to that question is clearly no. American officials did not have certain knowledge that any specific prisoner or prisoners were being left behind, then. But there remains the troubling question of whether the Americans who were expected to return but did not were, as a group, shunted aside and discounted by government and population alike. The answer to that question is essentially yes.”
UPDATE: There
have been some recent comments for this post.
So I am moving it back up closer
to the top of the page.
Thank you.
Wild Thing
Obama Sponsors Campaign to Make Juneteenth Day a National Holiday, Uniting the Country? It is NOT enough that they have Black History Month, MLK day and stupid Kwanzaa! Good grief!
What the Hell is Juneteenth Day????
“Juneteenth” or “19th of June”, is considered the date when slavery ended in America. Although rumors of freedom were widespread prior to this, the announcement of emancipation did not come until Union General Gordon Granger arrived in Galveston, Texas to read General Order No. 3, on the “19th of June”, 1865. This was more than two and a half years after President Abraham Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation.
Juneteenth is now recognized as a state holiday or state holiday observance in Texas, Oklahoma, Florida, Delaware, Idaho, Alaska, Iowa, California, Wyoming, Missouri, Connecticut, Illinois, Louisiana, New Jersey, New York, Colorado, Arkansas, Oregon, Kentucky, Michigan, New Mexico, Virginia, Washington, Tennessee, Massachusetts, North Carolina, South Carolina, West Virginia, Vermont and also in the District of Columbia. Many more states, including South Dakota, Arizona, Pennsylvania, Mississippi, Montana, Maryland and Wisconsin have recognized Juneteenth through special day and year state legislative resolutions and Gubernatorial Proclamations.
Washington Post Saturday, June 18, 2005
In Congress, Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) and U.S. Rep. Danny K. Davis (D-Ill.) have sponsored resolutions asking for a national Juneteenth observance.
“Just like the day when the greatest civil rights leader of our time was born or the day we finally gave African Americans a ballot and a voice, Juneteenth is a day when we look back on a time when everyday Americans faced the most daunting challenges and the slimmest odds and still persevered,” Obama said at a luncheon Thursday.
That quote above from from 2005…now this below:
Washington, DC) – As Senator Barack Obama makes great strides in becoming the nation’s next president, Juneteenth supporters are hopeful that the “19th of June” will finally be established as a national holiday observance in America. Senator Barack Obama has been a key sponsor of Juneteenth legislation in the senate and keynote speaker at the annual Juneteenth Congressional Reception. This year, the 2008 WASHINGTON JUNETEENTH National Holiday Observance will feature “Juneteenth, A Grassroots Celebration of American Values, A Music Festival with zydeco, gospel, jazz and blues!”
President George W. Bush has been urged by Congress to recognize Juneteenth Independence Day by issuing a special Presidential Proclamation. President Bush, who has declined participation in the annual WASHINGTON JUNETEENTH National Holiday Observance since taking office in 2000, has perplexed national Juneteenth leaders by the lack of personal public acknowledgement and comment on Juneteenth, considered America’s second Independence Day.
“President Bush is the former Governor of Texas, where Juneteenth has been observed as a paid state holiday since 1980,” states Rev. Ronald V. Myers, Sr., M.D., Chairman of the National Juneteenth Observance Foundation (NJOF), host of the annual WASHINGTON JUNETEENTH National Holiday Observance at the nation’s capitol. “With the urging of Congress through the unanimous passage of H. Con. Res. 231 by the House of Representatives and the unanimous passage of S. Res. 516 by the U.S. Senate, we are hopeful that President Bush will finally issue a Juneteenth Independence Day Proclamation.
If not, we are confident that if Senator Barack Obama becomes president, he will certainly make Juneteenth a national holiday observance in America. We are also truly appreciative of the leadership Congressman Danny K. Davis (D-IL) has provided Juneteenth supporters through legislative efforts in Congress.”
Juneteenth, or the “19th of June”, recognizes June 19, 1865, in Galveston, TX, when Union General Gordon Granger announced freedom for all slaves in the Southwest. This was the last major vestige of slavery in the United States following the end of the Civil War.
This occurred more than two and a half years after the Emancipation Proclamation was issued by President Abraham Lincoln. Upon the reading of General Order #3 by General Granger, the former slaves celebrated jubilantly, establishing America’s second Independence Day Celebration and the oldest African-American holiday observance.
Wild Thing’s comment……..
This is the first I have ever heard of this stupid thing.
OK OK OK! I am sorry your mom was white, I am sorry you are hung up on that fact, and have a hate in your heart towards white people. I am sorry that BLACKS sold BLACKS into slavery. But I wasn’t there, my family ancestors were busy in Switzerland skiing, making clocks and delicious chocolate. Tending cows on the slopes of the Alps and wearing lederhosen.
NOW, can we please drill in ANWAR ???
…Thank you Les for the article.
Pakistani Police Say Teacher Beat, Killed Blind Boy for Not Learning Koran
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