Theodore's World

They use suicide bombers. Would death really be a deterrent? I dont think it will have any impact really.

Also, note that a death penelty must be unaminous. The exact numbers are not available, but its likely only one or two members voted for life.

3000 on 911 and 2500+ in Iraq. 5,500 Americans get the death penalty and this schmuck gets three meals a day, tv, magazines, medical, dental, vision, social security, clean linens,"Free Moussaoui Fan Club", endless, endless appeals, and maybe even a hutch to display his Hummels of Bin Laden on. I'm speechless.

Billy

Suricou Raven I don't know the numbers for and against. They might tell us in the news at another time, I'm not sure.

Billy it is really messed up isn't it. I still can't believe he only got life.

That is probably a defense attorneys picked jury. And "our peers" may be the kind that believe reality tv and wrestling.

I have little faith in Repubs/Rinos, but if we get a democrap in the White House in '08 I believe we will lose the WOT. And it would not surprise me to see this asshole retried and maybe even let go, or pardoned by a Hillary type to show our compassion.

Lose the WOT? How can we lose it? Or, for that matter, how can we win it? There are no criteria.

Could the terrorists win? Well, absolute worse case scenario, they gain the ability to launch multible massive attacks. Tens of thousands of Americans die. But America is still there - and its population is hardly dented. What if they get hold, somehow, of a nuclear bomb? That is highly unlikely, more a scenario for action movies than reality, but just about within the realm of possibility. They would probably try to destabelise the country by blowing up Washington, and most of the federal government with it. But the state governments are quite capable of running automonously. There is no possible way in which terrorists could destroy America. And it is extremally unlikely that they could even do significent damage to it. What they can do is create fear - hence, terror-ist.

Could we win? No. They are terrorists. You can tighten security on the airlines, and they will bomb the trains. You can tighten security on the trains, and they will bomb the stadiums. Their weapons are basic. Their drive is strong. They dont fear death, prison, or any form of punishment. If you catch one, more appear. Its not a war - its a game of whack-a-mole that does nothing to solve the underlying cause (ie, they hate us due to a massive cultural difference).

The War on Terror is just a political tool. A very effective political tool. A new, scaled-down form of cold-war politics: Create an enemy, claim to be at war, and then claim that only one party has the strength, dedication - even the patriotism - to fight it. There is a threat from terrorists - but its just not so great that it must overrule all other concerns.

3000 dead on 911? Hmm... considering all the billions that have been spent on counter-terrorism, thats a very high spending-to-death ratio. Why do road accidents, or rising obesity, not prompt the same level of spending? You could save a lot more than 3000 lives every year there for considerably less than has been spent on the War on Terror. But it doesn't have the same political influence.

Suricou:

Studies show that the death penalty can be a deterrent, particularly with lifers who are tempted to commit capital crimes while in prison. I'm not surprised you bring it up, though, because it's consistent with your other ideas about so many things.

But that isn't the point. Deterrence as a social benefit deduced from the possibility of execution is only one piece of the issue.

Criminal penalties, all of them, are unjust if they don't express some measure of controlled vengeance, some way to express a society's outrage for a particular crime. Execution for Moussaoui was a just reaction to both his crimes and his attitudes.

In fact, an apocalyptic death cult like Islamism has undermined the potential for deterrence in several areas, especially in the use of nuclear weapons. We have reason to think that MAD won't work with Iran, and we know it doesn't work with homicide bombers.

How would you deter "terrorists"? What are their complaints?

I agree Tom, look at the Democrat Clinton and how he let terrorists go free as he was leaving office.

Suricou Raven,

A couple of things. You cite the possibility of terrorists getting a hold of a Nuke as "highly unlikely, more a scenario for action movies than reality". Although you qualify that with it may be within the realm of possibility. I have to contest that. I believe it to be a goal of the terrorists to detonate a nuclear device, if not several within our borders.Now, if you would have told me that terrorists had learned to fly Boeing 757's and would be able to board 4 airplanes in teams of 4-5, kill the pilots anf fly the planes into buildings eluding our air defences, I would have said that THAT would be more a scenario for an action movie.

WHEN they get their hands on a device, the number of Americans killed will be much greater than tens of thousands if the target is an area with a population density similar to Manhattan. Remember, the twin towers had 50,000 workers. In a sense, we were very lucky more weren't murdered there.

Which brings me to your Profit and Loss type "Spending to death ratio".

You may want to re crunch those numbers and factor in yourself and a few others that are still here to write on blogs, go to the store, complain about the rain and so on. We have not had another attack for 5 years, That is not because the terrorists feel sorry for us and think we've had enough. It is because of the billions spent on the war on terror, which you casually dismiss as a political tool used to fight an invented enemy.

I am amazed by the total detachment from reality some people have regarding the acknowledgement of the enemy we face. This is no longer an invented enemy. Have you forgotten the images, can you no longer hear the screams ? Regardless of our feeling toward either political party and there uncanny ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, let us not ever allow ourselves to be deluded into thinking that somehow we are facing a ficticious enemy, invented for polital gain. That simply is as big a lie as the Charlie Sheen conspiracy theory. Oh God, I hope you don't subscribe to that !!

Finally, I believe the threat IS SO GREAT that it trumps everything else. Without life, we have nothing. That is not being over melodramatic. The people who can confirm this for you are currently unavailable thanks to our invented enemy.

Billy

I hope his cellmate Bubba has a greeeeat time with him ...

Though I would have definitely preferred to see him fry.

RWR

Why do road accidents, or rising obesity, not prompt the same level of spending?

Because the Constitution doesn't authorize it.

Now to try and figure out why other things not authorized by the Constitution somehow prompt federal spending ...

RWR

Suricou Raven......
"Why do road accidents, or rising obesity, not prompt the same level of spending?"

OMG you are kidding right?

To compare the cost of going after terrorists, the cost of our military to a government spending our tax dollars on road accidents and the rise in obesity is apples and oranges. But since YOU seem to want a socialized government that spends money on needless bs like the rise in obesity there is no way to get through to you.

I can see it now.....Hey SGT bring that tank over here, we found a 500 pound man that needs our assistence. Or a politician running hisa campaign on how to slim down the weight of the masses,yep that would most certainly get him elected.

Suricou:

Interesting C/B Analysis. Burning death by terrorism at your office is no different, from a fiscal point of view than death by obesity. They only differ in their "political influence". Dazzling insight, Suricou, dazzling.

Your second to last paragraph leaves me wondering about a lot of things, not the least of which is your sanity. Having already established, in your own words, that terrorists can, or will detonate nuclear weapons in the United States, you then claim the War on Terror is a political invention. This is new level of intellectual de-coupling that one usually only sees at Move-On.

At another point, you also state...with a kind of staggering disconnect from the magnitude of the WOT, that "they hate us due to massive cultural difference"...therefore denying your own remark that the WOT is a "political invention". Hmmm, indeed.

With no intention to press too hard on your fallacies, come back and tell me what your solution is so the violent potentialities of those "massive cultural differences".

Not all those who died at the World Trade Center were Americans, nearly 500 foreign nationals from over 80 different nations were killed in the WTC terrorist attack.

Richard Reid now has lifetime conpany, I would prefer both be put to death. During that one hour of free time they have each day maybe they both can become NAR's.

Zacarias Moussaoui is a Moroccan born in France in 1968 who grew up in the U.K., is still a resident of the United Kingdom with a masters degree from Southbank University in the United Kingdom. Richard Reid was born and raised in the U.K. and just which city was that blind Muslim 'Cleric'Abu Hamza al-Masri from?

Perhaps this is why there is such an infatuation over the fate of the home grown terrorists by certain UK citizens when their terrorist spawn get caught abroad. The only thing better than executing these beasts would be if the citizens of the UK were to pick up the expenses of keeping them alive for the remainder of their life sentences.

Death is to easy,they give you some meds you
drift into lala land and then you get the
needle gone no muss no fuss...Now the supermax
is a gift that just keeps giving 5'x7' cement
and steel,no windows,no tv,radio or magazines
this isn't your every day lockup no Human
contact 24x7 365...In 3-5 years he will start
to drool on himself and say 10 years he will
scream for the needle...The only change I would
make is it would be in total darkness 23 hrs a
day,like I said Death is the easy way out!!!!!