Theodore's World

Easy for you to say... America is a very long way from anywhere with a sizable muslim population. Europe is adjacent, and with a lot of immigration.

Suricou Raven:

I think what you just wrote can be considered a tuo quoque fallacy, but never mind. Logic and consistency don't seem to be your strong point.

In your mind, the presence of a near and large Muslim population therefore justifies Orwellian Newspeak, and capitulation to a radicalized, unassimilated population of Third World fundamentalists. So much for your defense of the systems which allow you to speak on a blog like this one.

Furthermore, the same population of Muslims exploits the structural weakness of tolerant Western society in order to supplant it with its own murderous intolerance. A fact you ignore or simply fail to understand.

You also disparage WT's remarks and impute to her easy cowardice because she doesn't live in proximity to Muslims...a "fact" which you have no way of evaluating as true or accurate.

I'm impressed. With twenty-six words you've comitted a logical error, expresssed your own subservience to radicalism, and condemned WT for not agreeing with you. Allowing for good faith on your part, this is still why we need to keep people like you from the reins of power everywhere, always and forever.

Have a nice Dhimmi.

Rave:

While I've got you on the phone, six questions:

A) What would be your substitute expression for "Islamic Terrorism"?

B) Where is the use of the word "Islamic" as an adjective not permissible?

C) Should non-terrorist Muslims be offended by the use of the word "Islamic" when applied to terrorists who are almost universally of the Muslim faith?

D) Should precision in language and expression be discouraged because of local prejudices?

E) Is the purpose of language to communicate or to conceal?

F) How would you describe the murder of Theo Van Gogh?

Eager to hear what you have to say.

I am eager to know the response too Rhod, those are GREAT questions!

Suricou Raven: 'Easy for you to say... America is a very long way from anywhere with a sizable muslim population. Europe is adjacent, and with a lot of immigration.'

Bwaaahahaha!!!!

You've let them retake the continent!!!

First off the U.S. has a sizeable population of Muslims, we do try to assimilate them into the society, most do, some are descendents of Americans who have been here for over 200 years and refuse to assimilate, of those some have chose to become Muslim, others are legal immigrants that refuse to assimilate and work to fund the increased immigration of fellow Muslims, then there are the illegal immigrants who come here to work, use the system for their health, welfare and educational benefits all the while sending their earnings back to their home countries to encourage more to come here illegally. All have no intention of becoming countrymen or assimilating nor will they defend this country against foreign aggression.


Secondly the EU has forfeited the sovereignty of the member nations in the interest of Socialism and a global one world government. The EU members have set back and let the forces of Islam dictate their social programs, their laws and as separatists they have set up their own countries within their adopted countries with their own laws, religions and customs.

Instead of chastising WT and the rest of the true Americans for challenging the influx of legal and illegal immigrants to our free nation who are here and come here only to spread their form of religion, intolerance and destroy the Constitutional freedom some of us have fought to protect. Why don't you question your own leaders, challenge those EU policies that permit the world's worst murderers to live amongst you ?

It's up to you, the people, to change what is going on in Europe, it's up to people like WT and her readers to prevent that from happening here.

Thirdly, we can stop this by insisting that the Internal Revenue Service verify every employee's Social Security number, if invalid disallow the employer's employee tax exemption, prosecute and deport the offending employee then prosecute the employer.

Next stop all exportation of U.S funds unless the sender has a valid Social Security Number, even then limit it to a token yearly amount. If illegals are caught using any social program, deport them immediately. This nation has the infrastructure in place, the welfare agencies, the schools and the hospitals all report child abuse, just tack on illegal aliens to the list.

Our leadership may have already sold The Spirit of '76 culture down the drain. Even with the horror of 9/11 and now the massive Hispanic marches, our leadership hems and haws. And the doors to the country are wide open, almost to include a Walmart greeter. And we have yet to deal with the Chinese coming in illegally.

This may be the Bush legacy, the drastic radical change to Americas' culture, and our step into the Third World.

Go ahead and swear, curse and cuss Wild Thing. I certainly do. May be too late to pray, but political correct expressions and excuses have sure worked against us.

The big war to come may be between breeders, the moslems and Hispanics in America, with the Chinese picking up the spoils.

Hope to Hell I am wrong.

Jack and Tom:

Both the Chief Executive of this country, and both Houses of Congress, with their unwillingness to respond effectively to the mass migration to the US, have rendered this government illegitimate. I can't think of another period in my lifetime when I felt this way. I've hated and loathed certain adminstrations (Johnson, Carter), but never believed my government was willfully ineffective at the expense of the native population. Now I do.

I seem to have been terribly misunderstood :)

I do not support this change of language for itself. I am very much against Islam. Im against all religion actually, but espicially Islam because it presents more of a threat then even fundamentalist christianity, another religion I like to complain about. I consider that when political correctness places religion above criticism, something is wrong.

I am also of the view that religion is defined by its followers. Islam is not bad because its an inherently violent religion - its bad because a sizable number of people choose to interpret it that way.

My point was intended to be that in America, it is easy to complain about Islam. The muslim population there is large, but spread very thin. Big country. Over here, you cant complain so easily. I dont mean threat of violence prevents it. Threats of complaints do. The bad publicity can be a serious problem for a media company, so anything anti-islam just doesn't get published.

We also have enough muslims that they are a sizable influence in elections, so of course all politicians would like to gain their support.

Suricou:

I suppose that's a partial explanation, although I'm still troubled that you do "not support this change of language for itself"(?), whatever that means. You go on to say you support a change of language not because of threats of violence but because of threats of COMPLAINTS. If I were you, I would have settled for the violence probability; it was somewhat more manly.

You seem also to suffer from the British and Continental delusion that America is insulated from internal difficulties because of the accidents of geography, because of our size, or some other insupportable conclusion that allows you to justify your own failings by claiming that the US has been merely lucky.

I could have expected no better illustration of our separate ways of life. You find yourself inextricably mired in a precarious mixed culture from which you have no escape, no remedy, and which will ultimately exclude even you from free participation. Settling for less than full freedom of expression, you have already settled for none of it.

Your fatal error, though, is in failing to recognize that America has over two hundred years of experience with assimilation of the non-native-born...more than you do, much more. Part of our success is that we expect new arrivals to become Americans, and we don't run away when they complain.

S Raven,

You have not been misunderstood. Your posts here, and on many conservative blogs that I visit on a regular basis, (about 50 every week), have a common theme: Anti fundamentalist christianity, and mild statements regarding Islam.

Your second statement ignores 1400 years of the violent spread of Islam and the legacy of it's theocratic, nature. Islam is both church & state. A very dangerous thing. Only believers have rights, tho limited by shari'a. Women don't have rights. Non believers are second class, or lower. Dhimmitude. Go educate yourself here:
http://www.dhimmi.org/

America's founding fathers laid the foundation of a democratic republic specifically seperating religion and government. But by design guarranties freedom of speech, assembly, religion as specific rights.

Your last two statements indicate that you are not a free individual. You live in fear of Islam. By your own statement you fear "complaints". A free man or woman would take a stand and be counted.

Genral John Stark, (a soldier during the American Revolution), said it best: "Live Free Or Die; Death Is Not The Worst of Evils." What are you willing to do for your freedom? Many of the fine men that post here have done their part for Freedom, and would do it again if needed. So would I, till my last breath, I will be a free man.

Rhod, your statements ring true. Thanks.

RTC:

As you say, "So would I, to my last breath, I will be a free man". Nothing more need be said on this subject but that, and I must hope that in pockets abroad, others feel the same way.

You also raise a terrific point about Islam and Raven's comment that there is some equivalence between "fundamentalist christianity", which he diminishes by failing to capitalize "Christianity" in the same he capitalizes "Islam".

There is no moral or textual convergence between Christianity and Islam, none whatever, although The Crusades will always be offered as a similarity by those who know little or nothing about the subject. Where would secularists be without the Crusades and the Inquisition?

Islam claims jurisdiction over all mankind, is as you said, a merging of the religion (not just The Church) with The State and the body of law is Shari'a. There's nothing comparable in modern Christianity.

I tend to complain about fundamentalist Christianity because it is accessible. Muslims dont argue back so well, and I dont know enough about their religion to accurately make more than the broadest of criticisms. But I can enjoy a good debate over the various forms of creationism.

I do consider Islam a threat. But, unfortunatly, not a threat I can do anything about.

European culture, unlike American, is terrible for encouraging assimilation. We are so dedicated to accepting immigrants, we even have legal requirements for the UK government to make every document and service available in almost any language requested.

Personally, I think that if someone cannot pass an english exam after a year of living here, they should be sent back. But that would be considered 'offensive' because it 'implies their language and culture are inferior', so it is not permissable. Relativism is a good thing, but its being applied in excess.

I live not far from a building known by locals as The Brick. Its a temple, Sikh I think, and it is hideous. A giant concrete block, tallest building in the area, toped by a huge green onion. In a city of traditional english architecture. If any non-religious organisation wanted planning permission for the eyesore, they would be told to redecorate redecorate the outside to match the theme of the area. But not in this case - if they say their religion requires giant onions, then it is discrimination to deny them their right to worship under giant onions.

Finally, Fundamentalist christianity has the potential to be every bit as bad as Islam. Religions are defined by their followers, and I have heard many fundies make comments along the line of "If you are not a Christian, you are not American" or "Non-christians should be bared from office." A very large number of them complain that seperation of church and state is a 'liberal lie' based on a letter out of context and should be overturned. Just as many think that schools should teach only biblical creationism. It is easy enough to see what these ideas can lead to given time and numbers. Unlike Islam though, if I apply reason and ridicule in the right ratio, perhaps I can have a tiny bit of influence in holding them back. This is why I mostly ignore Islam, and leave it to others to stir up the distrust, suspicion and dislike which are needed to present an effective cultural defence against it.

Suricou:

Good post. Very clear, but your last paragraph is silly. As a lapsed Protestant I have no axe to grind in the religious wars, but your view that fundamentalist Christianity can be "every bit as bad is Islam" is preposterous.

I still disagree there. Fund-Christianity is not, currently, as bad as Islam. True. But it does contain the elements which could, under the right circumstances, push it in that direction.

For example, A basic princible of fundamentalist religions in general: I am Right. Everyone else is Wrong. For their own benefit, they must be converted to my religion, to save their souls.

Another one is the idea of religion as the answer for everything. For a fundamentalist christian, the bible is not merely a religious book. It is the source of all knowledge - of history, of science, of politics. You want to know the origin of man? Its right there in Genesis, and if thats what the bible says, then clearly any mass of evidence to the contary must be flawed. There can be no arguement - this is the basis of fundamentalism. Blind acceptance of the text.

And this applies to the law, too. Islam is obvious there - they still have stoning. Even with the stoning in the OT, no christian fundy is going to call for that to be revived. But that doesn't stop them using religion as the basis for law. Christian Voice, a UK-based fundamentalist organisation, for example, has a whole page dedicated to listing which of the UK laws violate each of the ten commandments. They publicly say that the government has a duty to prevent any business being performed on Sundays, and consider the signing of the UN Declation on Human Rights to be a form of idol-worship because it doesn't acknowledge God.

Things like that are the seed from which religious oppression can grow. Given sufficient time. A very long time - a few generations, at least.