Theodore's World

I talked to a lot of swiftboat guys and they never
liked Kerry he needs to explain to me how he got his medals I really would like to see the after action reports on Kerry and also on Murtha

I've had mixed feelings about this issue from the very beginning. As a VN vet, I can say a lot about medal inflation in that war, and the ease with which medals for (degrees of) meritorious service were distributed. Rank also had a lot to do with the kind of award, and this tipped me off in the beginning with Murtha.

He's been described as an Intelligence Officer in some places, and in others that "he led a company in Vietnam", which means absolutely nothing. Murtha has two Purple Hearts and a Bronze Star, and the Bronze Star is informative in itself. More on that below.

One could be grievously injured like Max Cleland (in part due to carelessness), or break a bone running from hostile fire and receive a Purple Heart. Both are combat injuries. Stars are another matter. Bronze Stars are awarded for meritorious service, and if they carry a "V-Device", the meritorious service includes valorous conduct.

It's my experience that OFFICERS who were wounded in combat, and were worthy of awards for merit, usually received a Silver Star, where valor was assumed. Silvers Stars do not have V-Devices. If Murtha was wounded in combat, it's likely that he would have a Silver Star, although he might have a Bronze too. Since he doesn't have a Silver, I have doubts about the entire set of hardware.

The pivot point of this question is whether Murtha's Bronze has a V-Device, because it would have an accompanying citation which would normally describe the operation and his behavior in it. This isn't a "medical record", as far as I know, and should be public knowledge.

I take no pleasure in disparaging Murtha, even knowing what I know about him. My problem starts with his opportunistic pacifism, but he's exploiting his service in Vietnam, and all of us had enough of that.

Hi Robert, if a person has nothing to hide then proving something that can easily be proven should not be a problem. It's not as though the information was destroyed in a fire or something. I just don't understand why the question should be such a difficult one to answer from either of them.

Thank you so much for commenting.

Hi Rhod, what you said.................
"I take no pleasure in disparaging Murtha, even knowing what I know about him. My problem starts with his opportunistic pacifism,
but he's exploiting his service in Vietnam, and all of us had enough of that."...............

I agree, Murtha and Kerry have used their service in Vietnam like an ad to give them credibility which is fine if it is for real. But to do it and not back it up is wrong and unfair to those of you that are for real.

When they speak out against this country as Kerry did after coming back from Nam. When Murtha speaks as he does about our troops, attacking them and then hugging up to the vile Code Pink...............well then he is fair game and he put himself in that position no one else did. How easy it would be if all he said from his service was true and Kerry too.

If it were me and I was doing and saying things like they are, I would just say ............."here is the proof, read it and weep Republicans now let me get on with dissing the troops and get out of my way." Their not proving things is what will cause over time people to see them as what they are as it did about Kerry in the last election.

Thank you so much for your comment Rhod.

Excellent post and comments Wild Thing.

I know there is a lot of inflation on giving of medals. When I was active duty, it was customary to award a medal to an individual when they departed for another assignment or seperated from the military. More than once I had to justify to our Squadron Executive Officer why I was refusing to forward a recommendation for a medal on a departing or separating individual. Even with a file full of reprehends and counseling letters for substandard performance, I had to convince them the person didn’t deserve a medal. They were given out like candy.

I know of instances where senior people got Bronze Stars for an overseas bombing campaign but they NEVER left their stateside base; worked 8 – 12 hours and home every night with the family. To me, that cheapens the medals for those who truly deserve them.

Bob:

I'm glad you said it. Bronze Stars were dispensed without reason; they were also usually given to E-5 and above, where an Army Commendation Medal (in the case of the Army) was given to E-4 and below for the same kind of service.

Bronze Stars to officers for warzone service were almost guaranteed, whether the officer was combat arms or not. That's why the possession of two Purples for a Marine officer without a corresponding demonstration of valor is very suspicious.

Several of the conservative blogs think that questioning Murtha's commendations is dirty and shameful. Well, when a man is routinely described as "decorated", while using that description to demonstrate moral or intellectual credibility, we need to know just how "decorated" he is.

All branches of the military have numbers of poseurs, frauds, scoundrels, thieves and grandstanders. Just like the rest of the population.

P.S. to Wild Thing:

Thank you, too. Your last paragraph in your return comment is on target. If Kerry and Murtha are the genuine article, there's no rational reason for them to dissemble and avoid the test.

No combat experienced man or woman of integrity will allow his/her service to carry more weight than it deserves. War leaves you an expert in nothing except yourself. If you don't bring humility home with you, you weren't paying attention.

If Murtha has only an inflated war record to offer, I don't want him to lead this nation. Too many men with military career ambitions went to Vietnam just to get their ticket punched (endorsed as serving in a war zone), stayed safely out of harms way then came home to brag about their battlefield heroism. Most of us veterans have encountered these creatures while over there and were glad they were promoted and moved on. They could neither lead, follow nor get out of the way. In exasperation some commanders have shined these misfits up and promoted them out of their hair. Imagine Murtha being at the Battle of the Bulge instead of McAuliff. I would suggest that Murtha let his concience be his guide but he demonstrates daily as Pelosi's puppet that he dosen't have one.

Hi Bob, I wish I knew more about all these things. As a civilian my knowledge is very little in comparison to those that have served. So I really appreciate it when I can learn more about it.
Thank you so much for your comments.

Rhod I agree, thank you.

"when a man is routinely described as "decorated", while using that description to demonstrate moral or intellectual credibility, we need to know just how "decorated" he is.".........well said Rhod.

Jack yesss his conscience shows up to be missing. Like you said, as Pelosi's puppet.

A number of years back there was a retired Air Force Chief Master Sergeant who claimed he was a participated in the Bataan Death March at the beginning of WWII. This Chief spoke at Military Banquets and Dining In's all over the US and was held in the highest of regard; his story would literally bring tears to your eyes. He was respected so much that the Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force publicly rebuked some other older retired Chiefs who questioned this mans service and claims; it got ugly in the upper AF enlisted world. The individual turned out to be a FRAUD. He lied about his role in the Bataan Death March and his other heroic acts. For years he pulled the wool over the eyes of the top Air Force leaders...Officer and Enlisted.

Just because someone has a few medals and served doesn’t mean that their story is genuine. Sometimes you need to be from Missouri and Show Me.

Well said, Bob. More on that subject, the actor Brian Dennehy claimed for years that he was a VN vet (he wasn't) and the smirking moron Tom Harkin claimed he was a pilot flying missions over North VN when he never left Okinawa. There are dozens more like these, especially the slugs who rallied around Kerry back in the '70's.

I'd go even further and say that having awards for some genuine deed or wound is also no guarentee of anything but a rare quality confined to the event which earned them.

On the vets' blogs during the last Presidential campaign, the subject was (for the most part) avoided by everyone. Even combat vets get a little uneasy when the subject is raised. For one thing, you never know who's telling the truth. For another, it's my opinion that you're never the man in your citations and most everyone knows that. And third, if you want to separate yourself from your natural comrades, start bragging.

That doesn't mean there isn't a pocket of pride and satisfaction in having been recognized by your country and your comrades, but it should end there, I think.

There is something absurd and potentially fraudulent about a guy like Murtha, and especially someone like Kerry. It's no different than the Cindy Sheehan Effect.

Two interesting sites about Medal of Honor fakes.

http://www.homeofheroes.com/a_homepage/community/imposters/cottone.html

http://www.homeofheroes.com/a_homepage/community/imposters/index.html

-.-

Hi Sparks thank you for the links.

Rhod, you hit the nail right on the head.